Andy Raff ([info]wulfboy) wrote,

When You Reach Your Carousel

So anyway I was hanging out over at [info]oxfordgirl's end of the woods (it's cool, they have parties there and also outbursts of hate) and there was some talk about wikipedia. I started posting a reply and then I got caught up in it, and before you know it I was back on my live-journal posting a post which having just checked my clock takes me an hour to do (I'm editing now, this is the future, what you are about to read is in the past already, all the tenses are wrong).

Purely coincidently, I have just spent - Christ is it really four hours - on wikipedia. Am spending rather as I haven't quite finished yet. I didn't mean to. I was reading up on Clint Eastwood directed movies and then I got snared by Jonestown Massacre. Then before I could finish an innocent alt-tab lead me to think examine I was actually doing.

Is it healthy to unconsciously treat wikipedia as equally reliable when chuckling at the nostalgia evoked by the episode guide to Coupling, or following chains of thought regarding Galactus as Great Old One, or considering the causes of the Jonestown massacre or the global civil rights movement, or the facts of the San Francisco trial of Dan White?

It's hard for wikipedia to get "facts" about milk or the shape of an oxygen molecule wrong. It doesn't really matter in the larger scale if they misrepresent the plot of a novel or I disagree with their comments about Wuthering Heights. Does it matter any more what their bias is on neurolinguistics or the biography of Canadian science-fiction author Margaret Atwood, or the events at Mai Lai on March 16, 1968?

Wikipedia is lazyweb at its finest. I can follow links to other sites if I want to but why should I? Surely all the information I need is laid out there neatly and in well-punctuated paragraphs. Other peoples' websites are often messy or have been constructed by people who think "magenta" is a suitable colour for text.

Will I ever crack a reference book about Jonestown? Probably not. I'm just too lazy and superficial for academia (which is why I made such a bad showing when I was there). I assume that the wikipedia entries on the Guyyana events have been written by responsible people who know what they are talking about and have tried to reduce bias. But have they? Are they? How can I check without going to the reference books, and in that case why not go to the reference books first and damn the easy-access narcotic with its pictures and easy navigation sidebar? Am I fundamentally any different from the sound-bite zombies I claim to despise?

Well yes. I think I can answer that one. Wikipedia might be an unreliable source of information but in most of the cases I've consulted it for anything more complex that the origin of Chicken Kiev it's been cross-referenced, and has appeared reasonably balanced or at least sufferd from a bias obvious enough not to confuse me. I've spent a happy hour or three poking at any number of topics. It hasn't made me an expert, and I'm self-aware enough to know that, but it has without a doubt improved my understanding of the world (albeit in a small way) in a way that watching the television news has not and almost certainly will not.

Without wikipedia I would know nothing about Jonestown at all apart from the "fact" that the Reverend Jimmy Jones fed a load of people cyandie in the cool-aid and they all died. I think I got that from a throw-away reference in a Stephen King novel (or was it Peter Straub) and maybe a pop song.

And on the third (or fourth) hand, I am keenly aware of the kind of intellectual paralysis that comes over me when I consider how much I don't know about. I'm not denigrating those people who can sit and read a three volume discussion on the Vietnam war, far from it. I recognize that the only way I could create even a mildly pure understanding of any event would be for me to dedicate the rest of my life to tracking down and reading primary historical sources. But even thats a road fraught with misinterpretation, bias and prejudice. Without the use of some sort of magical time-machine-cum-mind-reading-hat, I do not believe that I can ever know the actual truth behind anything, anywhere, ever.

Somewhere along the line I have to trust somebody else. Is the historian who writes the well-researched text-book any different to the historian who writes the well-researched wikipedia entry? For that matter is the holocaust denier who writes the pseudo-history that he passes off as fact and different or more dangerous if he writes on paper or on electrons?

[info]pax_draconis has said "Truth - and above all, history - should not be a matter of consensus." and to a degree I agree with him. However I also hold the opinion that truth is virtually impossible to pin down, and the more moments elapse between us and the event, the harder it becomes. I think that truth has been a matter of consensus for a very long time, and that Wikipedia is no more nor less to blame for it than the methods of recording and presenting "facts" used by any previous generation, right back to Egyptian pharoahs chiselling their grandparents faces off statues in an effort to change the past.

The "danger" in wikipedia (apart from its lure as a simple go-to source of information) it's in approaching it without an awareness of bias and without accepting that what you are looking at (like the enxylopedia or the school text book before it) is not the whole of the thing. It is part of the elephant but it is not the whole elephant. I was taught that quite efficiently at school, primarily in History and English (and to a lesser degree in Biology of all places). I recall one teacher who helped me understand that the real point of education was not the rote memorization of facts, but to teach the student to think, to be suspicious, to apply their critical faculties to anything presented to them in life, and its something I've believed ever since. Without that foundation, there's no point in worrying about wikipedia becuase we are all doomed anyway.

Wikipedia is a tremendous resource. I for one welcome my new information overlord.

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  • 25 comments

[info]mr_h_r_hughes

November 19 2008, 14:06:34 UTC 3 years ago

I'm scared, I was just reading about Milk and White too - Stop looking into my mind!

Never go to the TV Tropes website, you'll loose hours in there.

[info]mr_h_r_hughes

November 19 2008, 14:07:48 UTC 3 years ago

PS:

It's Kool Aid - yay I'm a soft-drinks pedant!

[info]wulfboy

November 19 2008, 14:25:15 UTC 3 years ago

Wikipedia disagrees with us both and says "Flavour Aid." I might have to dedicate the rest of my life to the search for the truth.

[info]mr_h_r_hughes

November 19 2008, 14:44:31 UTC 3 years ago

I was making no claims about the good Rev's choice of assasination cocktail, just pointing out that Cool Aid is in fact Kool Aid ; )

[info]wulfboy

November 19 2008, 14:56:37 UTC 3 years ago

Spelling it with a "K" offends my sensibilities. I might have to dedicate myself to crushing the Kool Aid Korporation like some sort of crazed 18th-century Tspelling Tsar.

What is Kool Aid anyway, soft-drink pedant? In my mind it's a bit like those horrible plastic cups of Panda Pops they used to force on us on school trips. Only with more potassium cyanide and potassium chloride obviously.

[info]mr_h_r_hughes

November 19 2008, 14:59:34 UTC 3 years ago

It's disgusting! A powdered sugary chemical-filled cocktail to which I think you add water to make a 'delicious' fruity drink. In theory just like Soda-Stream only with powder rather than syrup, no fizz and even less-appetising.

[info]wulfboy

3 years ago

Deleted comment

[info]mr_h_r_hughes

November 19 2008, 15:06:23 UTC 3 years ago

Hehehehehe, a good point well made

[info]wulfboy

3 years ago

Deleted comment

[info]masati

November 19 2008, 14:44:14 UTC 3 years ago

(Not entirely in reply to OxfordGirl, but it's where I started from)

To some extent you have to not tell the truth though.

Let's take Chemistry. At GCSE I learnt that atoms have electrons that appear in layers, with 2 in the first layer then 6 in every layer after. At A' level I learnt that in fact this was an abstraction and really there's a number of differences in the shells and it goes (1s)2, (2s)2, (2p)6, (3s)2 (3d)10, (3p)6 - or something like that - and I'm told you learn that in fact it's different again at the degree level.

The second (or third) may be more accurate, but without the abstraction most people wouldn't be able to get a handle on it at all.

Now, I'm all for telling students learning this that in fact this is a simplified view of the subject and they'll have to study it at a higher level of education to know a more accurate one, but to some extent you could say that it's propagating the most widely understood theory over the most accurate because the most accurate is more difficult.

With the explosion of the amount of information that's available society has adapted; young people are much more adept at skimming large quantities of text for particular information than they used to be for example. In order to deal with the increased scope of knowledge one of the ways we handle it is to know less about more things, cherry picking the bits we need (or want).

And that's largely where I think the problem comes about; anyone who puts something forward is going to have it skimmed and, because we're expecting to see information that's been summarised and abstracted, things which aren't as thoroughly well reasoned or investigated will look as genuine to our skimming attention. Add in the media giving a "popular" view on most subjects (not that many people enjoy learning that what they thought is a load of rubbish and that they need to learn more), reinforcing the abstractions and half-truths (and downright untruths at times) and it's quite easy for nonsense to become well rooted simpley because "everyone knows".

Given most people don't work everything out from first principles (we don't have time in our lifetimes) I'm not sure we aren't stuck with it. As that teacher pointed out, the only thing to do is to be suspicious and critical of all data - particularly where there is no possibility of a definitive answer; if you want truth limit yourself to provable mathematics.

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[info]wulfboy

November 19 2008, 14:59:46 UTC 3 years ago

I'm glad you mentioned Pratchett and Science of Discworld. I wanted to but I felt very self-conscious about always referencing him like he's some great thinker or literary genius, and everythone knows they have to be dead.

One positive thing - I'm all positive today - is that proper wikipedia entries have a little "touch the screen to learn more" list at the bottom that takes you to other parts of the Internet. Which brings us back to the idea of wikipedia as a knowledge search engine, and is in its way could be a greater aid to genuine scholasticism than a list in the back of a reference book.

Listen to me talking about scholasticism. You've got more expert knowledge of current academia than I do, what're your thoughts of the current ogliarchy?

[info]john9newton

November 19 2008, 16:17:11 UTC 3 years ago

"I'm glad you mentioned Pratchett and Science of Discworld. I wanted to but I felt very self-conscious about always referencing him like he's some great thinker or literary genius"

If it's any help, most of the 'science' stuff in that series wasn't written by Pratchett.

[info]littlefeltfangs

November 19 2008, 18:34:50 UTC 3 years ago

We (PHD tutors to 2nd year undergrads) keep meaning to edit the wikipedia pages relating to the current undergrad assignment and fill it full of lies. We have warned the undergrads that we plan to do this.

That said, wikipedia is usually a fairly reliable source of information, and I usually have a quick read of the relevant pages even before I fire up the relevant journal search engines.

I find the truth-by-consensus aspect of wikipedia interesting rather than frightning. Because in practice wiki-truth isn't consensus-truth. Many people on wikipedia are constantly vigilant for mistakes, untruths, and things they disagree with. So the truth on wiki is shaped by the level of shared commonality an article can reach before someone will fight for it. For what ever reason wiki seems to have more militant academics than militant others, so wiki tends to reflect something close to the 'truths' taught to university undergraduates than any other kind of truth. Which is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.

[info]wulfboy

November 19 2008, 14:54:49 UTC 3 years ago

I think it's important to know that there is more to it than the GCSE layer, and to have the mental toolkit neccessary to find out what the "more to it" actually is.

The text skimming is something I hadn't thought about - the more information is available, the greater the tendency to want to see it arranged neatly, the greater the risk of thinking in summaries. As you say though, it's something we're going to have to learn to live with. It's that whole mental toolkit again - needing the skills to find the information you need more than you need to know the information.

[info]samharber

November 19 2008, 15:47:37 UTC 3 years ago

As a scientician (i.e. I know nowhere near as much about science as I'd like to), I think that any reading matter (website or book) should have a note at the end saying something along the lines of "You have just read a simplified version of things. For a more advanced view, go here:"
Thus anything other than cutting edge research or utterly definitive works (if such a thing could exist) will show the reader the way forwards.

I note that Scientologists already do this, charging mucho money for the 'further truth'.

[info]wulfboy

November 19 2008, 14:49:36 UTC 3 years ago

Does this mean that suspicious buggers like me will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes? :D

It's not a line from Propane Nightmares by Pendulum, and consequently it is stuck in my head at the moment.

I absolutely agree that democratic knowledge is dangerous. If X-Factor and Pop Idol have taught us nothing else, it is this. I deplore a lowest-common denominator approach to any subject whether it's the events of the second-world war or the over-powered-ness of Death Knights on Warcraft. The IQ of the mob is that of the thickest member divided by the number of people involved, and I don't think any of us are immune to its lure.

The concept (exagurrated for comic effect) that we might take a phone-in vote on how many people actually died in Belsen, or who ordered the Hiroshima bombing, or to pick the six wives of Henry VIII is insane. It just cannot happen. There are people who exist that the made-up story of creationism is true, but that doesn't make it true, because rational people - not just experts in evolutionary biology - can tell that it is not true.

Expert knowledge is absolutely valuable because without the work of the expert, I can't be the five-minute expert bluffer. In the ideal world, wikipedia is updated by people who are experts, with other experts conspiring to keep each other honest. Dissenting views are embraced. Facts are presented, commentary is clearly flagged as such. I live in a dream world, I know, but I think that it is possible to have experts without the negative connotations of the intellectual elite.

A greater danger in my mind is the belief that seems to be deep-rooted into our community at the moment that only "experts" need to bother about things like (say) quantum mechanics, history, or indeed anything else - that academic pursuits are elitist or irrelevant to the man in the street. I hate that. It's a talking Malibu Stacy down the blackboard of the soul.

Anyway, hasn't there always been a tendency to favour the most popular theory? In the past, it was the theory that was most popular with the experts, but (being human beings) surely they were as prone to bias, irrationality and prejudice as anyone else?

If wikipedia can give me, my neighbour and the local hoody community the chance to gain even a peripheral understanding of theories of quantum theory, or the life of Bach, or (indeed) the events of the murder of Congressman Leo Ryan isn't that a good thing, and a fine thing to hope for?

Darnit. I've been thinking more about this than I have anything for about three months. Could be a good thing.

[info]ed_fortune

November 19 2008, 14:56:54 UTC 3 years ago

Masati makes an interesting point about the concept of Lies told to Children which wiki helpfully defines for us.

What we need, is more tools to analyse the information our already powerful information tools bring us. Y'know, ones that encourage us to think and not simply absorb.

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[info]wulfboy

November 19 2008, 15:28:13 UTC 3 years ago

As mentioned - dream world. This is my ideal too. But how can it happen? Can it happen?

I think our species needs to evolve. I might write something about that later because I've been mulling it over recently.

I don't think the tried-and-tested (if flawed) idiot-filters built into the "hard" publishing industry are neccessarily worse than the methods of institutions like Wiki. Without a discerning approach to books, or electronic text, there's only so much you can do. I agree that it is a danger that you could mistake the lies for children for the whole story, and I also accept that its more of a danger with a quick-fix source of information like wiki than it is with a big, serious-looking book.

I agree this is a problem - but I suspect it's the difference between "adopting the B text of Malory over the Q text" and "adopting the belief that the original Arthur legends in English were written by T.H. White".

Or that Magic Boy in Grumpy Castle as Prof Woody has christened it presents the definitive version of the Arthur legend. or even that there is a definitive version of the Arthur legend. I don't think that problem is something that wikipedia helps or hinders. There are reportedly people out there who think that J. R. R. Tolkien wrote a poor novelisation of the Lord of the Rings movies, after all.

(while still fearing and hating its lies)

I'd argue that this is something people have needed to do since forever, and will probably always need to do as long as opinion is presented as fact and "the truth" is treated as a five-dollar whore turning tricks for his/her betters. I think wikipedia - indeed the internet - is just making it more obvious, and perhaps worrying our intellectual superiors because stupid people can't think for themselves and might get restless (chance would be a fine thing). It's up to the kind of people who care about the difference between the B and the Q text of Mallory to remind that there is a difference and why its important.

Before you can get to that stage, though, I think you need to be at a point where you know who King Arthur is and what the stories are about him. I mean, mistaking T. H. White for the definitive Arthur at least gives you a place to start from, as long as you're rational enough to accept that you're wrong when you are presented with new information.

I am put in mind of an(other) anecdote from my extreme youth. I was about nine or so and one of the kids in school challenged the teacher over the whole "spiders are not insects" thing. He'd told his mum and she'd told him it was not true becayse it was "just silly." This was before there even was an internet, or computers, or indeed electricity. I'm not sure what my point is, but its probably something about willful ignorance and misinformation being nothing new and something we all have a duty to the species to fight against.

(had to remove a chunk because apprently LJ will only let me make 4,000 character replies)

[info]wulfboy

November 19 2008, 15:28:24 UTC 3 years ago

I would very much like to see research that proved that the people who Learn through Wiki are people who, in the absence of such an easy resource, would not be at all inclined to pick up an encyclopaedia, visit their local library, access expert websites... and so forth.

That kind of research could be interesting, although I'm suspicious of that kind of thing because it is often used to draw conclusions based on the shape of the elephant's leg rather than the activities of the elephant as a whole (to create a convoluted and perhaps unhelpful metaphor). I can however stand up and admite that I am someone who learns through wiki. Maybe if I had a comprehensive and useful encyclopedia in the house I'd reference it, but it'd be full of dull information about Finland that'd be just a waste of paper from my point of view; it'd be non-reactive, and it'd not play music at me while I was reading it, and it'd be hard to keep three pages open at the same time. I know that sounds flippant, but the sheer capability of electronic media to connect and present information still boggles me if I think about it for too long.

Actually, the size of the internet terrifies me, and until wikipedia came along I avoided using it for anything more than Live-journal, computer games and LRP websites. Wikipedia provides a tool through which even a neo-Luddite like myself can find things out, even if it is only in a surface fashion.

[info]littlefeltfangs

November 19 2008, 18:43:16 UTC 3 years ago

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070112-8604.html
Links to two projects trying to combine wiki-goodness with expert-review.
If we're lucky aspects of these will be successful and incorporated into wiki, but I doubt either will be a serious contender to wiki on its own.

[info]john9newton

November 19 2008, 16:21:32 UTC 3 years ago

Wikipedia deleted the entry for 'Rule 7' because they couldn't grasp that 'taking the piss' could have any meaning other than 'consuming urine'.
I like Wikipedia as an entry-level search tool, but I often wish there was an English version.

[info]samharber

November 19 2008, 16:53:58 UTC 3 years ago

Put in an entry for Taking the piss first, then reference it.

To be fair, I'm responsible for some wiki vandalism. I got my beloveds brother to edit the entry on Environmental Information Regulations with a poor pun.
Nobody has amended that yet. Obviously it's too dull an entry for people to check.
Someone keeps removing his definition of a Heffalump though (an unpleasant lumpy bit in jam apparently), so it makes you wonder what people find important.

[info]hekai

November 20 2008, 03:57:19 UTC 3 years ago

Interesting points on a sort of anti-bugbear of mine, in that I get consistently riled by people (mostly 'academics') who portray wikipedia as their bugbear.

Whilst I make no great claims for wikipedia (except that I have always found the entries I've read to be as reliable as most other sources), I have long held that to broadly dismiss it is as ignorant as the least accurate of its entries. True, it is not a suitable academic reference, because it is not a fixed, primary source - but this misses several blindingly-obvious points:

a) It's not meant to be any of those things;
b) 99% of people don't need academic references, or even absolutely accurate information; they need 'good enough for now';
c) Fickle opinion, inaccuracy, subjectivity, heresay and vested interests may not affect truth, but they have always affected the perception of truth, and every communication in any medium - so even the most reliable academic reference is only a 'good enough for now';
d) Wikipedia is not a source at all, but a vast collection of them - assessing its reliablity on anything more than a sentence-by-sentence basis is meaningless; liking or disliking it is just personal preference, not an objective assessment of overall information quality.

Even for academics though, wikipedia can be useful, as it often provides a broad overview of a given topic, with some degree of peer (possibly even expert) review, some insight into popular conceptions and opinions, and references that can include worthwhile primary sources. Yet I've seen lecturers cursing the very pixels that give wikipedia life, and others suggesting that sabotaging its articles would improve matters. And here I thought academia taught people to assess information sources objectively... :)
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